ColdFusion People
I find the community surrounding programming languages to be very interesting. I've been thinking about the CF community a lot lately, and here are some groups of people that have come to mind:
- Discussion followers
- News readers
- Training/Conference/UG attenders
- Software producers
- Authors/Trainers
- Hidden Programmers
mailing lists/forums/blog comments and tear it up. Actually, I think most people in this group are just lurkers, but there is often a lot of heated debate in this crowd. However, most of the conversation is congenial. Such friendly help for solution seekers also provides excellent, search-able knowledge bases.
News readers—These guys usually fit in most of the other categories as well, but some of them are Just Programmers (or other low involvement categories). I like to think that folks in this category are often more advanced than most of their peers. But I might be biased. :) The News Readers (as well as other community participants) often have the biggest voice in software releases/features, because they see requests for comments, beta tests, etc..
Training/Conference attenders—I think this crowd is very interesting. You get a cross section of all groups to attend, and yet some of the members in specific categories never participate here. And at the same time, I think there are programmers that only do this, excluding all other community activities.
Software producers—We all love these guys. Publicly released ColdFusion software is what helps the community grow. Most people know and love the celebrity types like Raymond Camden, who do a lot to help those of us that need a quick drop-in chunk of code. But I'm always surprised when I find out about software produced by the quiet, talented people. These guys contentedly make money with their product, even though most people in the ColdFusion communities aren't exposed to their offerings. Their customers probably don't know that their software was written in ColdFusion. I also think most people in this latter demographic don't participate in the communities very much, if at all.
Authors/Trainers—Another invaluable group of developers, providing ColdFusion books, magazines, and training courses (and some would say blogs). These folks are usually, though not always, heavily involved in the communities. I have found that some of these folks see themselves as 'ColdFusion Royalty'. I'm not going to name names, but some ColdFusion content producers place themselves on a throne, of sorts, and neglect to mingle with the 'peasants'. You will see their articles being read all over, but you'll rarely see their names in the forums or blog comments. You will, however, see these lordly types at conferences and user groups, often giving presentations. Nonetheless, it's unfortunate that the community doesn't benefit from more "Royalty" participation.
Hidden Programmers—I believe that this is the largest percentage of ColdFusion programmers. I call them hidden because they don't participate in the communities, at all. Personally I know 2 of these folks here in the Boise area, but it's hard to gauge the number in this group because nobody knows them. They often learn ColdFusion from reading just the plain ol' docs, but they will also get books. Sometimes they will read the blogs of their favorite authors, but other than that you won't see them paying attention to the CF world much at all.
Overlap I know there is often overlap between many of the above groups, I didn't intend my descriptions to be mutually exclusive. But I think the saddest crowd are the hidden programmers. These folks could really help the CF world grow, but they're more content living in their own isolated world.
Jake Munson
35 Yrs old
Perhaps I can offer an insight, if I may, as to who these hidden programmers are, from my own experience. Part of the reason may be geographical isolation, or scheduling conflicts. I live in the Washington DC metro area, and there are two user groups to the west of me. However, these two groups require that I would have to either skip out of work one morning (assuming that I'm employed and Boss doesn't mind me doing so even when there are critical project deadlines) and walk several blocks from the closest metro station. For the other group, I'd have to drive at night on the Beltway (I don't like to do this and my husband doesn't like me driving around in the dark) or travel for over an hour on the metro to the location and then either walk several blocks (in the dark) or find a bus route.
I like to reserve evening hours for family time. So most of my interaction is through blogs, reading books, trying out sample codes, watching Breeze presentations, and so forth. Perhaps one day I could see if I could get an user group going closer to home if there are enough CF users.
It doesn't sound like you're what I was calling a hidden programmer. Just the fact that you are on this blog (and others) means you're trying to be involved in the community. Also, haven't I seen your name on some of the CF mailing lists? The 'hidden programmers' I was referring to don't do any community interaction, or at least rarely. They use CF at work all day, and rarely make themselves known to the rest of the CF world.
It could be that some of the hidden programmers are those who just happened to learn CF because it was required for their job and would likely switch to another programming language if their employer decided to make the switch . . .
Taking myself as an example, I'm not at all active on the CF-talk list (it's just WAY too busy) nor the CF Forums (I'm not a fan of web forums at all), but I *am* active on over a dozen CF-related mailing lists (CFUGs and other subject-specific lists). I could certainly see that someone only on those other two prominent resources could indeed think I'm "neglecting to mingle".
Even if you don't personally regard me as in the category, I say this on behalf of those others, especially since you've left people to try to think who you refer to. I'm not asking you to name names, but I hope you (and others reading this and forming the list in their mind from their own perspective) will consider that those you're thinking of could well be in a very similar situation. Hope that's helpful.
On the subject of "hidden programmers", I couldn't agree more. One of my goals as a mentor for other developers is to get people more involved in the community. It doesn't always mean going to user groups or conferences, but checking out various lists, browsing the forums, and reading the blogs are all things that any developer can do from their office or home.
With that said, will you be at MAX in Las Vegas?
What can I do to make the CF-Talk list more attractive to you?
Good post. I've noticed this myself in the past. What I'm curious about though is how other communities act. I would be willing to bet you would see the same divisions in other language communities as well.
I would definitely /not/ put you in the group of aloof 'royalty'. I see you all over the place in the community. Again, I don't want to name names, but there are two prominent folks in particular that I have NEVER seen on a mailing list/forum/blog. Yes, I this could be because I'm not running in their circles (even though I'm on 4 lists right now, and I've been on others in the past). I think that said figures feel that to preserve their 'mystique' they shouldn't mingle with their 'followers', because that would bring them down to the same level.
This scenario happens all over the place, in any community/industry. For a more concrete example, have you seen a blogger that never posts in comment discussions under his own posts? I've seen that before, even when people are asking them direct questions in the comments. Why do you suppose they chose to ignore their readers in this manner? Maybe they're shy or busy? Possibly, but I think it's this aloofness I'm talking about. But I also tend to be overly negative too... :\
I don't want to speak for Charlie, but I agree with him that it's way to busy. I'm on the Blue Dragon mailing list right now, and I'm impressed with how on topic the discussion are. You will see some OT stuff creep into threads, but it's not long before Vince puts a stop to it. I love CF-Talk, because everybody seems to congregate there, but I'm too busy to wade through all the OT stuff. I sent you an email about this yesterday, with some suggestions on what I'd do to 'calm the storm', so to speak. For brevity, I won't repeat myself here.
I agree, other language communities are the same, I'm sure. I think it's just human nature, to fall into the categories I mentioned in my post. I know that the hidden programmers that I mentioned are just too busy or shy to get involved. Personally, I think they should make it a priority, but they don't see it that way, and that's their /and/ our loss, I suppose.
I tend to agree. However, I've found that gmail's topic based display makes it manageable. I don't post very often, but I can at least watch it for trends.
Also - a lot of times I'm too late to answer a question. :)
When was the last time you were on the list?
I've found in the past that dividing the list up into sub-lists only works when people post to the sub-lists and the distinction is clear. This works for CF-Talk vs. CF-Community but fails for the XML or SQL lists.
The second problem is how gmail handles labels. I'm really anal about directing mail to folders, I hate having tons of email mixed up in my inbox. But the only way to do this in gmail, that I know of, is to label a message and then archive it (with a filter). This works fine, except that you don't get notified about new messages through whatever notifier you use. So the only way I'd be happy with gmail on mailing lists is to use email in a way that I don't like.
I just unsubscribed yesterday. I went through and cleaned out my cf-talk folder late last week, and then by monday afternoon I had over 300 messages. Maybe most of it was OT, I don't know.
I think the problem might be that we have a disagreement about what is OT. If you do a search for SQL questions over the past few months, I'm sure you'll find thousands of messages. I don't care to see SQL questions on a CF mailing list, but others will disagree. The same goes for network management, or PC problems (both of which I see on CF-Talk). I would be happy if CF-Talk were just that, CF talk. I don't mind if people debate about CF features, discuss CF events, or even discuss CF related web sites. But CSS/XML/SQL/Networking/ASP/Perl/Microsoft are all OT, IMO (unless they are asking about a CF function related to the topic, of course). I haven't been perfect about staying on topic on the list, but if there were strict rules/enforcement, I definitely would be.
The other problem is that often threads will start out on topic, but stray into OT areas.
In my email yesterday (maybe you didn't get it?), I suggested that you setup a group of volunteers to be traffic cops. This would only work if you define a strict set of rules for the list that your cops would enforce. You could then setup a form for feedback on the cops, and require that a specific example thread be referenced, to make life easier on you. </2cents>
But here's the problem. If I have list monitors, they'll come into play after the message has been posted, not before. I could give them the ability to move a thread from one list to another after the fact, but that would mean that someone replying to a thread on CF-Talk that has been moved to the SQL list will either start a new CF-Talk thread or write code to make sure all lists are checked for a reply-id or subject to keep the move proper. Some mail clients don't send a reply-id (which is the previous posts message-id) and others mess with the subject (Outlook kills off the prefix of OT: ).
If you think that this would be an idea which will make the lists more attractive to people in the community, let me know or let me know your suggestions so I can mull them over and see if it's possible.
As is, to do the above, I have to consolidate about 30 different databases into one.
If you put a few monitors on the list (or appoint existing cf-talkers to be monitors), I'd not expect the list to be 100% on topic after that. If people post OT stuff, I'd expect the monitors to reply to the same thread and request that the conversation be moved elsewhere. But I don't think I'd want them to physically move the conversation.
Also, a couple of other things I've seen on this list are duplicate topics, and the use of OT in the subject line. As far as duplicates, if you search for Internet Explorer and Flash over the last few months, you'll see a number of posts where the answer was the EOLAs patch, and the Adobe site that discusses it. When duplicates like this come up, people could be directed to the search function on your site (and they often are today). The use of OT bothers me because people feel that throwing OT in the subject allows them to post about anything from ASP questions to Linux shell commands.
If you go look at the archives of the BD interest mailing list you'll see that the threads are almost always on topic. Like I said before, sometimes a thread will stray OT, but someone is usually quickly putting a stop to it.
In order to deal with the sheer overwhelming volume of email I had to process, I had to drop off a number of mailing lists just to get any work done. I read over 200 blogs (using an offline reader, so I can read articles on my public transit commute) and I'm still on several framework-related mailing lists but I couldn't cope for the volume for either cf-talk or cfcdev (the latter doesn't have a web-based interface as far as I know?).
Maybe I /should/ just drop their names...I doubt they'll ever see this thread! ;)
If you guys don't believe that there are aloof community leaders out there, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But it's not uncommon in communities in the world, if you look around at other communities you'll see the same thing happening. However, I think sometimes these leaders are just busy, or choose to limit their involvement for other good reasons. That could be case here.
Recently, i found out that CF-Talk (and other lists from HoF) are archived at nabble.com, and it's been working very well for me so far. You can flag lists, threads, or your own posts (on a post by post basis) and get an email when somebody else posts a reply. I know it sounds ridiculous to get an email notification of the fact that a message was posted to an email list, but it really works for lists like CF-Talk where there are so many different topics being discussed and you only want to follow *some* of them.
I just added in the ability to search a specific list for content rather than searching the entire site. This might help as well.
Please let me know anything else that can be helpful to you. If you have a problem with the list, then others do as well and I don't like that.
That's one more point, also, for the whole "some folks seem aloof" argument. Many techies are really quite introverted--and it may shock some to realize it, but even some folks who are VERY comfortable on-stage don't do nearly as well with one-on-one conversation. For some, it's disdain for small talk. For others, it's that they fear they have nothing interesting to say in personal conversation. They can talk for hours on a "topic", but that's just a very different animal than conversation.
Still, as has started to come out later today, perhaps it really is just a matter of your not having crossed their paths. I think the better sentiment was the one you originally said before making that aloofness assertion: that we should be glad that there are those who *do* step out and share their knowledge in the many forms, from frequent presenters/bloggers to day-to-day list participants. It's really what makes the CFML community great.
As for CF-Talk, I will eventually find something that you'll like and while not pulling you all the way in, at least make the site something you want to visit. I'm going to make that my new years resolution (as of 2 days ago).
Oh, I'm not disagreeing. I was actually surprised when you narrowed it down to just two people! I've heard the comment before - there was quite a buzz about the "royalty" at and after CFUNITED and yet no one would name names. It's quite possible that the folks you think are aloof don't realize their behavior appears that way and if they knew, they might well change.
I don't see folks on the frameworks mailing lists that are active elsewhere in the community, to be honest, so I don't think you'll find "royalty" hiding there either. I'm also having a really hard time thinking of "royalty" that doesn't even have a blog...
As Charlie says, a lot of techies really are somewhat awkward socially and the stage is a very artificial world so that might also be an explanation.
As for connecting with folks for "just a chat", I try to be very aggressive about growing my IM roster (on Skype and elsewhere) and I'm always happy to "just talk" as long as I'm not in a meeting or slammed with work, of course. I'd encourage everyone to do the same if they feel they have time and space in their life for more online friends. It's been really interesting getting to know a number of people in the CF community away from the daily grind of work.
I think it's likely that the people I'm thinking of are akward socially, and therefore shy among crowds. But would that stop them from joining the popular mailing lists, and chiming in now and again? I suppose it could, but if so that person needs counseling. ;)
Again, I suppose it's just a matter of full schedules, shyness, or just plain missing them. But I do know one thing: guys get cocky very easily, and writing a book, doing training, writing software, or doing presentations makes guys cocky (me included). Only the truly humble among us don't get cocky when you have thousands of people reading/using your stuff. And when people get cocky, they tend to look down their nose at everyone else. We're talking basic human nature here, and I'm guilty of this too.
As someone who is exceptionally socially awkward IRL, I can say that this does not prevent me talking online; the social things which I'm crap at don't exist/matter online, and I often embrace the opportunity to communicate without them. (Obviously not everyone is the going to be the same, but my experience is that it is similar for most socially awkward people.)
Regarding the cocky/humble stuff: please don't put down the entire human race in order to justify/alleviate the attititudes of a few cocky people.
:)
The thing is, I'm /not/ attacking ANYBODY. The reason I don't name names is because I /don't/ want to attack anybody. Naming names would do this:
1. All you guys would justifiably start tearing me apart
2. Someone would inform the person I accused, and they would join the 'fight'
3. Nobody would be on my side, because now it's personal
4. In the end, my original intellectual discussion would be overshadowed by this petty fight, and I would look like a turd
The biggest reason I don't name names is because I /don't/ know these people very well, and I could VERY well be wrong. However, my opinion is backed up by a lot of direct observation, both of these people and other people I've known more personally who acted the same.
Peter, if you think that every person in our community that is in a position of 'power' and/or fame is a humble benevolent do-gooder, then you're a better man than me. I believe that people are flawed by nature, and fame/power very quickly goes to the head (not in all cases, of course). Being in the ColdFusion community doesn't shield you from your inner human weakness. Look at corporations, politics, the media, other IT focused communities, the story is always the same. Fame/power corrupts, and those that are immune to it are few and far between.
That said, I still stand by all my previous comments (go back and read them, I'm to lazy to repeat myself ;) ), that I very well could be wrong about these individuals. But from the evidence I have, reading these people's articles, hearing them in podcasts, seeing them on stage, and NOT seeing them in any of the popular public forums I visit, I think it's more likely that I'm correct. But, like with everything else, I must throw in the obligatory "IMHO". :)
By way of an example, I used to have an annoying habit of biting my nails when in cinemas/lecture theatres/etc, and I wasn't aware of it until a friend pointed it out, at which point I made an effort to stop doing it, and was glad it was pointed out to me.
I think, so long as its done discreetly and tactfully, most people would appreciate such a comment.
(although some might instead think you're insulting/attacking them and bite your head off)
>> I believe that people are flawed by nature, / inner human weakness
That's the bit I'm disagreeing with - I don't think humans, in general, are inherently flawed.
Some inevitably will be, but I don't agree that it's a trait of the human race.
>> Fame/power corrupts,
Again, I don't agree with that - I think that people who are corrupt will yearn for power, whereas normal people generally have no need to want power. Thus people who aim for powerful positions (politicians/celebrities/etc) are often there because they want the power, with the minority of people in power who are seen as humble because they don't specifically want the power, but use it to do good things.
Hmm, I'll try saying that again: Humble people are as common as corrupt people, but its mostly corrupt people that aim for power.
(Hopefully that makes sense; I'm a bit tired though, so it might not.)
First of all, I don't personally know these people I'm referring to as royalty, so if I were to go to them and say, "From what I've seen of your public actions, you seem to be a bit aloof." They'd probably say, "Who is this guy, and where does he come from, accusing me of something like that?" If I knew these guys personally, I'd be much more inclined to talk to them about it.
Secondly, you agree with me that there are people that strive for power. I also agree with you that a lot of people don't want power/fame, and if they receive it they won't get cocky. But I'm going to give three concrete examples of people in our society that are power seekers.
1. Jerry Springer guests. Who in their right mind would parade their personal problems before the public on national TV? Well, obviously these people do it, and they want this because they see it as a way to achieve fame.
2. People that play the lottery do it because they want instant riches. If you read the reports of such lottery winners, you see that most of them don't know how to handle it and their lives are often ruined from the instant wealth. Also, it's much easier to get rich through hard work and perseverance, than winning the lottery. But these facts don't stop millions of people from playing lotteries.
3. Politicians are an example that you touched on, and I'll elaborate. First, winning in politics is usually very difficult. Second, you get to suffer from lots of public tirades and character assassination. Third, the pay is usually pretty low. But, millions of people still run for public office around the world, from small local communities to national levels, in both the public and private sectors. Why? Because they want to be able to be in charge, and do it their way. Plus, fame is a good added bonus.
Whether it's notoriety, money, or politics, I believe that most people in the world would like some form of power. In our little CF world, you can get power through fame, money, and yes power (if you run a popular software project, for example). And you'll be hard pressed to convince me that famous people in our little community are different from the rest of the world, and they all somehow sit in their elevated positions with utmost humility. Now, I'm not saying that the majority of them are pompous, but I do think some of them are. Is that bad for the community? In my original post I postulated that it is, but you can disagree with me on any of this and I won't be offended.
rob
I don't think it is specifically bad for the community to have pompous people. I don't think it's good though, so it could be considered bad from the perspective of not being as good as it can be, but that is then edging towards the question of whether power within a community brings a moral responsibility to make an effort to be good towards that community, and those things always confuse me so I'll shutup now. :)
Jacob, I think you SHOULD email that person and actually explain yourself, communicate clearly and as sensitively as you can, and make sure they have the chance to either explain themselves or make a change... or tell you to p1$$ off. At a fundamental (and probably academic) level it's not really fair to speak of them publicly (even if you're protecting their identities... it raises questions, causes people to guess and jump to conclusions, and in general just doesn't really do any good... and frankly if someone thought as lowly of me as you seem to of "them" I'd at least like the chance to know what's going on and possibly improve the perception.
That's my .02 dollars. It ain't worth much but it's all I've got. :)
Concerning the CF-Talk portion of this discussion. I get *way* more mail from the jQuery list than I ever get from the CF-Talk list, though it is right up there in volume. I personally use gmail to view lists, and it makes it easier for me. I'd use the HOF site more, but I really dislike its layout and general feel. It seems extremely busy to me. Don't change it on my account though Michael -- I'm good with viewing the lists via email. :o)
@yacoubean - Dude! You're a member of the church! Me too! :o)
Please look at http://jobs.houseoffusion.com/ and let me know if this is cleaner?
@yacoubean - lol! Yeah, I've only been a member since December of 2002 (I was 27 at the time). Good times! 13 million strong and growing! :o)
I'm just applying some of what I wrote in my Making Google Pay II article. wider sidebars, cleaner layout, sparser, more specific ads, etc. And the new cflayout tag is really nice when used right. :)